Legal contracts can make or break a musician’s career, but many artists don’t know where to start. Bree Noble welcomes Mimi Camara of the Camara Law Group to discuss the importance of legal representation for musicians and how artists can protect their rights in the industry. From record deals to publishing contracts, Mimi shares insights on negotiation, common pitfalls, and the real impact of legal decisions on an artist’s future. Whether you’re an independent artist or aiming for a label deal, this conversation will help you navigate the business side of music with confidence.

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Legal Representation For Musicians: Contracts, Rights & Industry Insights With Mimi Camara

We are here with Mimi Camara of the Camara Law Group. I’m excited to talk to you about all the things that we have to deal with as artists in relation to legal stuff. I think it’s going to be a good, helpful, and juicy episode. I want to always start off with getting the story behind how you started in this, Mimi. Just let us know how did you get started working in the music industry, and what do you feel your goals, your missions, your superpowers are in what you do now.

Thank you for having me, Bree. It is a pleasure to be sitting here with you. This might sound super lofty, but my goal is for everyone who wants to make a living out of art to be able to do so in the most fair and honorable way. I am a very pie-in-the-sky, Rosie the Riveter type of personality, and I just believe in the people and want to always be on the side of right, happy, and fair.

In terms of how I got started, I am just a regular girl from Staten Island, New York, whose dad was a roadie for a lot of musical acts growing up. He would be loading things in and out of the house on behalf of the Wu-Tang Clan during the ’90s, and I personally saw how, once the shift went into digital in the 2000s, his money was less. He would be bringing home less of a paycheck and having to take on different roles, and I was just like, “This is not right.”

Entering The Music Industry & Advocacy For Artists

There has to be a happy medium in making sure that everyone can get their fair share. I thought that I would be an artist advocate as a rapper, but I was bad at rapping, so being a lawyer was a good second step. I worked in-house at Warner Music Group for ten years, and it got to the point where I felt that I learned the playbook and I wanted to jump over to the other side and affect change.

Did you go and work there in order to learn this playbook so you could then play the other side? That is interesting. It’s like learning all of the secrets of the enemy camp and then going over and defecting.

I would say it was twofold. The brains of the operation are always going to be sitting on the side of the label because the label has been around since the beginning of time, and they’re not going anywhere anytime soon. I think my first primary goal was I wanted to sit next to the likes of Michael Kushner and Margot Scott and just absorb what they know and be a better lawyer. As I spent more time in the building, that’s when my rabble-rouser nature started bubbling up a little bit more, and I’m like, “I’m going to do this for a set amount of time and leap when it feels safe to leap.”

Did you ever get yourself in trouble? You probably had to hold yourself back from going, “That’s not very fair for the artist.” Did you ever mistakenly overstep?

Many times. I think overstep was my middle name towards the end of my tenure there. I’m happy that I have that in-house experience because I can say with a straight face that the attorneys that work there are not trying to get over. They’re just doing their job and following top-down direction. There were some times when I was like, “I like this artist, and I like this song. How about we just take out this paragraph?” They’d be like, “Are you crazy? Just go and be their lawyer. Leave us alone.”

I get it. They are being hired to do the job for their clients. You can’t fault the lawyers because they’re just doing what their client is asking them to do. They have to do what the client is paying them to do. It makes sense. Is there a fine line between these companies doing what they need to do for their shareholders and keeping their company running, and then being predatory? How did you feel around that?

I feel that the job is on the side of the artist to get what you negotiate and to arm yourself with someone who truly has your best interests at heart. It is because, at the end of the day, as Label Business Affairs, like you said, we have an internal client that we need to protect, and we have certain parameters, but everything is open for negotiation and discussion. Whether it’s a manager or whether it’s you going into it by yourself and not fully knowing the landscape, you’re going to get the template and sign the template, and that’s going to be it.

Everything is open for negotiation and discussion. Share on X

They have a boilerplate. It’s like when you go into the doctor and they’re like, “This is what we do for this problem.” You’re like, “I don’t want to do it this way. I want to do it this way.” You have to advocate for yourself. It’s just easy for them to be like, “Here’s the set of things that we always do,” and hand it to you. If you don’t say anything about it, then that’s easy for them.

That is exactly it. That’s why, at least for me, when I’m approaching a contract, I see a contract as a specific body. This is like an extension of your body, and you’re going to have different wants and needs than somebody else. For example, if I know that I have a guitarist who’s good at TikTok and good at playing all these social media games naturally, I know that I’m going to ask for more of a discretionary marketing budget. I know that I’m going to be super aggressive about marketing approvals because this client is wired to do everything themselves, and they don’t need the checks and balances of the product manager turning them that way.

On the other side of things, if I know that I have a fourteen-year-old who just immigrated from another country into the United States, who has a beautiful singing voice but doesn’t know left from right, I’m in my 30s, and I barely know my left from right. What do I expect from a fourteen-year-old? I’m going to allow the label to have more influence, not control, just because the wants and the needs are different.

The Role Of Lawyers Vs. Managers

I’m wondering, in this case, what is the difference between, in this negotiation, a manager versus a lawyer? Do you need both?

I think that in terms of relationships and day-to-day handholding and decisions like, “Am I going to the studio at 5:00 and sitting with this producer, or am I going to just do everything in my bedroom and keep that momentum going?” Decisions like that are best left to managers because they’re supposed to live with you very intimately and have that day-to-day experience that translates into making a business difference.

 

An attorney, on the other hand, is supposed to distill all of these personality quirks and intricacies from the artist and the manager and make that live in the paperwork. A lot of times, artists find it easier to talk to their manager and talk to them about those things because it’s like, “I’ll tell my mom, and my mom will go and tell the teacher,” but it could go either way.

I have some clients, especially if they are more seasoned veterans in this music game, who don’t use management and instead just hire administrative assistants to make sure that their schedules are aligned. They prefer to work directly with me and other attorneys because they know where they’re going, know what to do, and feel they have more peace of mind when doing the creation since they’re on top of the business side day-to-day. On the other side of things, I have clients who just want to paint and do ceramics and go into the studio. We’ll go to dinner and have a good time, but it’s just, “Please tell my manager all this stuff. I don’t want to know.”

There are definitely different personalities with artists, for sure. I’m curious, for independent artists, which are a lot of the people who are reading this, when is it time to connect with someone like you? Is it only when they’re maybe getting an offer from a label? Is it when they’re maybe getting an offer from a brand to represent them? Do they need to have somebody like you on retainer all the time in case something comes up and you’re already versed in what they’re doing?

I would say you should consult with an attorney from day one. I know that is cost-prohibitive for a lot of people, which is why, just for me personally, it’s going to sound strange, but I don’t charge people money until they have something coming in and I know that they can afford it because what I don’t want to happen, and unfortunately, this happens all the time, is people have their backs against the wall.

They might not be able to make rent. They just sign an agreement to get cashflow going in. Five years later, once they’re successful and once they’re on their feet, they come to me to undo it. My advice, and I know I’m not the only person, I’m not the only attorney who approaches their business in this manner, but I don’t see a lot of people advertising it or just talking about it, which is why I’m here with you, Bree. You should go to somebody that you trust, have a conversation, tell an attorney your hopes and your dreams, and let them help you flesh out where you want to be in the next 3 to 5 years.

Sometimes, when I have these initial consultations with people, that’s when we decide, “We’re going to file an LLC. You’re already spending all this money on studio equipment and traveling. Let’s at least make you a corporate being so when tax time comes, your bill is where it needs to be, as opposed to not claiming these business expenses as you should.” It’s just little nuggets and little pieces of advice that are baby steps into getting you to grow into the artist that you want to be.

It sounds like you can even give them a little bit of financial advice, which is helpful. Let’s say someone doesn’t want to have a career. They just want to write songs and record them. It’s like their legacy. They maybe started doing it at age 60 after they retired. Do you think they still need someone like you just to protect their interests?

Of course. At the end of the day, whenever you’re creating a piece of art, you’re putting your intellectual DNA out there in the world. Even if this is just a passion project or a hobby, it doesn’t feel good for your passion project or hobby to be used to train AI without your consent or even jacked and sampled by some artist that you think is a terrible person.

Even if it’s not necessarily about, “I need this income” or, “I want to be the next Bruno Mars,” you are a person. You matter. All of the things that you do deserve respect. Maybe in that situation, I wouldn’t advise that you have a lawyer on monthly retainer and you’re spending $10,000 a month just for the occasional song that you drop on Spotify. You should have somebody that you trust in your orbit.

I think that’s good. I don’t know. I’m not sure if I totally agree, but I think it’s a very useful thing to have. I certainly did not do that when I was just creating songs, but that doesn’t mean that was the right choice. I’m curious, where you say here, which is an interesting idea, is the no-deal versus a deal versus no deal. Some people are just like, “Any deal is better than none.” You’re like, “No, that’s actually way worse.” Why would you say that?

Understanding Record Deals & The Risks Of Signing

There can be so many chutes and ladders into a recording deal or a publishing deal. You might think that this is free money for three years of your life, but if you’re not looking at the fine print, sometimes the deal doesn’t end until you’ve put out a certain number of albums in your recording commitment. Sometimes, whether or not an album gets accepted as reducing your recording commitment is up to the sole discretion of whoever the CEO is at that time. The $20,000 that you got might have helped you at that moment, but now, when you’re ready to move on and get more money, you can’t because you’re exclusively signed to somebody forever.

I’ve seen situations where the splits just weren’t where they needed to be. The label overestimated the amount of development that they would have to do for certain artists. We just had to have a very serious internal conversation. “This is where you got by yourself. If you take this advance, even though they say that you can drop an album a year, that changes.” There’s a mixtape conversation that’s also heavily prevalent in Black music with hip-hop and R&B artists.

They might tell you, “You are not ready to drop a full-fledged album after a year,” and ask you to deliver a mixtape to get you bubbling and get you relevant. That’s increasing the amount of time of your deal by another 9 to 12 months because you can’t release a mixtape and release an album back to back. You have to let each one breathe, find an audience, and devote the appropriate amount of marketing time. Especially if you are at the very beginning of your career or at the very end of your career, that timeline is important, and you just have to be very mindful about it.

I’ve seen so many documentaries about artists where they’re stuck in bad deals, and then they have to go through this whole negotiation to get out. I want to know personally about this mixtape conversation. Does a mixtape mean that they aren’t officially releasing an album under their contract? It’s like a separate thing?

Absolutely correct.

Are they still expected to do it within their contract?

You get what you negotiate. There are certain sentences in the agreement that will say, “Company, at any time, can skew to deliver a set amount of mixtapes before any album cycle is complete, and it’s at their sole discretion.”

They’ll be like, “You’re not popular enough for us to release an album, so go and work your butt off basically promoting this thing that you’re not even getting credit for.”

Exactly.

This is interesting. I did not know about this. I knew about the whole mixtape culture and how artists have used that to their advantage in the past to blow themselves up before they could get signed, but I didn’t know that labels could require you to do that.

They can. As you said there is something in the culture that is positive about it, and it is an effective marketing tool, and it’s something that can do a lot of good, but a lot of times, when you’re on your second mixtape, you still can’t get the back end of your first period advance because you haven’t delivered the “album.” The triggers for you getting your advances are tied into the Delivery of the album, that 40-minute, twelve-track piece of product that the CEO says, “This is your work of art, and this is what we will call the album and spend all the marketing dollars for.”

Are they even still doing that? Is that an outdated idea of the whole album deliverable versus just delivering singles?

I think it’s genre-dependent because if you are a singer-songwriter, your fans are more likely used to that cadence, and you’re marketed in that cadence, and that’s just that. Even if you’re somebody like a Beyoncé or a Rihanna, people are waiting for that entity of product and that album, and that flow works for them. In the dance world, in hip-hop, and even pop to a lesser extent, or an equal extent, now that I think about it even more, everything is completely singles-driven. Once your single performs to a certain level, then that song goes on the album, and they build the tracks around that. “Here we are. Here this is. There’s LP1.”

Choosing Between Independence And Label Deals

It’s almost like a leading indicator in a way of, “It’s time to do an album because the single did well.” That makes sense. When you’re negotiating with clients or talking to clients, do you encourage them to look for label deals? Do you say, “There’s a better way. You can build this all yourself. You don’t need a label.” Is it depending on who it is? Is it a path, like you build your own stuff, and then a label will want you? Is it just totally dependent on who the person is and what they want?

Totally dependent on the person. I have clients who are strictly about the art and have no desire to walk red carpets and be in the Sabrina Carpenter lane. These are people who will be happy making a middle, working-class income just off of their album and nothing more. With clients who express those desires to me, then I’m like, “What we need to do is find you a great distributor, so that way, your per-stream royalty is as high as it can be.”

We find you someplace where you can purchase marketing services and get you to that comfortability that you are looking for versus, especially younger clients come to me and say, “I want to be the next Bruno Mars. Where am I going to go, and how am I going to do it?” If Bruno Mars is what you want, you’re going to have to work hard for that. In order for you to get to that stratosphere, you’re going to need the machine of a label.

I think that’s definitely true. Regarding the distributors, it’s in the news, as far as different distributors have different deals with Spotify and other things like that. There are distributors that can get you more payouts for your song than just going through DistroKid or CD Baby.

The Rise Of Independent Distributors & Hybrid Models

That is entirely true. There is a level of advocacy and consumer support that comes with using different distributors, but you get what you pay for. A DistroKid is perfect for when you’re just starting out. It’s $19.99 a year and set it and forget it. You just let the chips fall where they may, but because it is such a behemoth, you’re not going to get playlisting support from a DistroKid.

 

If you are somebody who’s making between, I would say, $25,000 to $50,000 on that platform, it might behoove you to go to a distributor like Too Lost or get into contact with a lot of these former label executives who are starting their own distribution companies. It is because they have the technology to get you a competitive per-stream royalty and because everyone is trying to build up that platform, they have different ins with commercial marketing people that will pitch your work to editorial playlists and just help you build your independent business.

I didn’t realize that there were so many independent distributors that were popping up. I have someone that I work with, a student of mine, because she does children’s music. She went with a distributor that’s specifically around children’s music and then helps her get into libraries and things like that. That makes a lot of sense, like a niche distributor that focuses on a specific genre of music and how they can help them distribute better. Is that the kind of thing you’re thinking of? Is it just particular people that are working with the artists more, even to help them market themselves?

A little bit of both, but I would say particular people. There are different companies that have A&Rs on staff evaluating the music in the same way that a label would and doing financial modeling to see where you can go and where you can get to with a certain investment in marketing. These are names that we see every day. Even a company like Vidia is making a very concerted effort to build more options around marketing and playlisting and help the people who distribute through them understand the data that they provide so they can target more of their marketing to see a return on investment. They’re offering modest advances to get the ball rolling in that sense.

United Masters is another company that’s going along that line of, “We see what you’re doing. Here is a modest cash injection, and here are two executives that know a thing or 2 or 3.” You still have to do 90% of the work yourself because this is not a label. This is a distribution company, and they’re not going to hold your hand throughout the process. If you are already a business, they’re willing to give you that loan to get you started, polish your understanding around data, and help you go from just putting music out in the ecosystem to maybe a Fresh Finds placement on a Spotify playlist.

That’s nice to know that there are these kinds of hybrid options that are a little bit like a label but are still distributors, where you can access some of this knowledge and tools that you can’t access very well. They have some tools that, like DistroKid, you don’t need guidance on how to use. That’s awesome. I see that you say you feel like there’s more money in the music industry than ever nowadays. That seems contrary to what most people would say. I’m curious why you say that.

I say that because there aren’t just 1 or 2 ways to exploit music now. YouTube as a music discovery tool and YouTube as a digital service provider fuel my belief. I’ve seen people go from putting music out on your Deezer, your Spotify, or whatever and just streaming playlists on YouTube. You’re getting that person at the office who just wants to put something on in the background, discovering your music through these visual streaming playlists.

Where your BMI check is going to be your BMI check, and the amount of money that you get from DistroKid is that. YouTube, even though it’s been here for a while, the music industry aspect of YouTube is still something where the ceiling needs to be explored. We haven’t got there yet. The more we play with the different kinds of ways that our song can be consumed, the more money comes back to you.

The more we experiment with different ways our song can be consumed, the more revenue it generates for you. Share on X

I think you’re so right about that. Same thing with podcasting, it’s just becoming a thing on YouTube, and it’s starting to grow a lot over there. There’s a lot of talk about how more people are consuming podcasts on YouTube, and maybe they’re not even watching it. Maybe they’re just listening to the podcast. That’s just how they consume.

It’s the same with music. It doesn’t have to be a music video that could be consumed on YouTube. I know that also for video, Spotify is getting into video these days. That seems like all they’re talking about. I do think there’s a lot of blue ocean there. I’m curious about your thoughts around just it being such a global economy now and music being able to reach other international markets, being able to be opened up to musicians.

That global market piece of everything is also the reason why I regard YouTube so highly because that, again, is where people are discovering what’s new and what’s hot. There’s less geo-blocking and all these different issues that you would have with your DSP, as well as subscriber payments and things. You don’t have to think too much about that. When we look at different countries and different continents, everyone has a smartphone. I think of a country like India, that’s 1 billion people with a smartphone, streaming content. They want to be entertained, too.

They’re streaming content at the same rate, if not higher, than everyone else. The more you think about what you have in common with your friend in your sister country versus hyper-localizing, again, the more return there will be. I think often about the early to mid-‘90s and pop bands at that time exploring places like Germany, then starting in the US, going to Germany, becoming a thing, and coming back.

I watched the Backstreet Boys documentary. I didn’t realize that’s how they blew up, starting over there.

Even a lot of underground rap MCs. France is the second-largest consumer of hip-hop music in the world. There are a lot of underground boom-bap rappers that might find mild and lukewarm success in the United States but sell out crazy in France and just build their career and sustain themselves off of that France-Germany-UK trifecta.

I don’t know if you know, but I run another show called Women of Substance. We feature music by female artists, and with the kind of platforms that I can now receive music on, like Groover, SummitHub, they’re totally global. I am getting so many more submissions from countries that I’ve never got submissions from before, Singapore, China, Japan, and even India and Italy. I’ve never played music from those people before because I just didn’t have a way to reach them. That is even another way to show places like that, that you can go and get your music in front of people who are tastemakers and playlist curators, something that wasn’t even possible five years ago.

Leveraging Global Markets & Data For Success

I love that. We are totally on the same page. I’ll even give you a little bit of an insider tip. We now have all this access to global consumption data. There are markers and predictors of your level of success in the United States that are based on how well you do X-US. The Philippines is a huge market for pop and R&B. A lot of label insiders will look at your data and see how you’re performing over a six-month trajectory in the Philippines to basically see is the juice going to be worth the squeeze in the United States.

It is a lot cheaper to do targeted ads and marketing in those countries than it is here. As an independent artist who might be looking for six figures, let’s say I want to go the label route, and I know that I don’t want to sign for anything less than $500,000 on signing. If I have a little bit of a buzz and a $2,000 to $5,000 marketing budget, I’m going to do test runs in the Philippines, Germany, and Japan. I’ll use that data and groundswell support so that when I have my label meetings, I can say, “This is what I did in Q4 in the Philippines. This is what P.D. did in the Philippines, and look at him now.” It’s just another playing field for you to get more information and better advocate for yourself when it’s time to do your deal.

Global consumption data is another tool to gain insights and better advocate for yourself when negotiating your deal. Share on X

That’s a seriously hot tip. I love that. It makes a lot of sense to me. I have a member of my team from the Philippines, very similar to us. It’s a great idea to use that as a marketing ground to see how you do. That’s very cool. Thanks for sharing that. While you’re here, is there anything else that you want to share, especially with independent artists, that you think maybe they don’t know about the industry or why they would need representation like you?

I would like to drive home that you should tell somebody else what you want, just your ten-year picture. Don’t keep everything bottled in and keep everything for yourself because there might be a revenue stream that you’re overlooking. There might be a scenario where you’re selling yourself short. I’m always down to get a whiteboard and have a session with any independent artist who wants to know how to build a career foundation or have a solid vault so that their grandchildren can take their publishing and do something with it.

This was a passion project for me, but my daughter is into music. I want to at least give her that to play with when she gets older. Talk about it. Don’t pay for it, but talk about it with someone. Just let people help you. There are lots of people, myself included, willing to help and willing to listen without having a hand in your pocket so that you can get to where you need to go.

I do meet a lot of artists who literally don’t know what they want. They just love music and want to be in music all the time, but they don’t know what they want specifically. They don’t know what their non-negotiables are. They don’t know what they want their life to look like in ten years. Sitting down with a whiteboard, like you said, with someone like you, can be helpful. That’s an awesome offer that you do that. How can artists get in touch with you?

You can send me a direct message on Instagram. I am @ItsMimiMartine on Instagram. DM me, and we will set something up. That is the easiest, open-access way to get in touch with me. If you don’t have Instagram, you can always send me an email at Miriam@CamaraLaw.com.

That’s easy. I would take her up on that. Do you do them virtually? I know you’re in LA, but will you do meetings virtually?

Yes. If you are local to LA, I’ll come see you in person. If I happen to be in a city where you live, we’ll find a way to meet up.

Thank you for being so open and sharing so many useful tips on our show. Thank you for making yourself available just to help indie artists. I am just like you. I am the optimist. I believe that every artist can carve out a place for themselves in this market. It’s just about having the right guidance to know how to do it, and you’re one piece of that. Thank you so much, Mimi.

Thank you for having me.

 

Important Links

• Mimi Camara on Instagram
• Camara Law Group
• Women of Substance
• Mimi Camara’s Email

 

About Mimi Camara

Veteran business affairs attorney turned artist lawyer Mimi Camara is using her decade of experience to help independent artists and labels get their fair share. Her style blends pragmatism with unbridled optimism to help developing and establish acts alike.