Choosing the right music manager can make or break your career, but how do you know when you’re ready — or who to trust? In this episode, Janis Shen, entertainment attorney and partner at Wax Management, shares her wealth of experience helping artists navigate the complex music industry. She breaks down the manager’s role, explains how legal and business decisions impact an artist’s future, and offers practical advice on building a team that truly supports your vision. Whether you’re an emerging artist or ready to scale your career, Janis’s insights will help you make informed choices and avoid costly mistakes.

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Landing The Right Music Manager: What Every Artist Should Know With Janis Shen

I’m excited to be here with Janis Shen of Wax Management. She has quite a background. She has worked with artists over the years. She’s worked with record labels. She is an Entertainment Attorney. We have a lot we can talk about. I want to start, Janis, by having you give us a background in the music industry, how you got started, why you decided to go into the part of the music industry that you did, and how you’ve moved through working with different companies and segments over the years to where you are now.

The Path From Musician To Entertainment Attorney

Thank you, Bree. It’s an honor to be here. I want to start earlier in my life because I am a musician as well. It informs my whole experience working in the industry. I played piano and violin. I started at the age of four. I studied all through until I got to college, at which point I was also a writer. I did writing and music and ultimately chose writing and went to school for poetry.

That matters to me. You may say, “Why did you end up being a lawyer?” It was just a part of me that said I have a lot of friends who are artists. I’m very much involved in the artist community, but I know that I have enough analytical skills that I could go into law and be helpful in the art world. That’s what I went to law school for. I decided I was going to study entertainment and intellectual property. It was all about working with artists to help improve their careers.

While I was in law school, I went to NYU. I was already in New York, and I had started interning at TVT Records in their legal department. Ultimately, I went in-house there. For those who don’t know, TVT is closed, but it was a big independent label well-known for artists like Nine Inch Nails and Lil Jon. They did a bunch of projects with Snoop Dogg. We had all the Wax Trax records as well. As a large independent, it was a vibrant community.

I value my experience there so much because, as a lawyer, I worked closely with all the different departments. You’d walk down the hall, talk to the marketing department, talk to the A&R department, and work on the projects from the get-go. I cleared all the features and everything. That allowed me to have a broader experience in the industry.

From there, I decided I wanted to understand the major label system, so I went to RCA Records, which was a lot different. The legal department was very structured, like, “This is what you do.” I was glad I had the perspective of understanding what these departments do and speaking to artists, as well as understanding the perspective of a large company. In time, I went into private practice.

While in private practice, I enjoyed working on the artist side. I stayed there and maintained my practice. I’m a Counsel at a law firm called Covey Law. While I was practicing, one of my artists asked me to start co-managing. I said, “Okay.” I knew them well. We had a great relationship. Years later, I’m still managing them, but I’m also a partner in Wax Management. We have a roster of ten other artists. We’re enjoying this great period of the industry where there’s so much more freedom and many more options for our artists. That’s where I am.

For my knowledge and anyone else out there who might wonder, what is the difference in what you do when you’re managing an artist versus doing the Entertainment Attorney side?

The Entertainment Attorney side is very deal-oriented. We negotiate and handle the fine print. I’m the closer. When I’m the attorney, the artists I work with usually also have management. The management comes to me and says, “We’ve pulled in these partners. This company has an interest. They want to put out an offer. I want you to talk with them.” We refine all the deal points. I negotiate the deal and then work on drafting all the various documents.

Going forward, I work with the artists on clearances, like if they have a sample, featured artist, producer, or mixer. Every single person an artist works with pretty much needs a deal, including band members if it’s a band. It’s very paperwork-oriented. I’m down to the paperwork, collecting the check. When I’m in the management position, it’s a much broader role. You’re developing the artist, coaching them, helping them with their independent marketing, and pulling everything together.

You’re a producer. You’re involved if they have to do a photo shoot or video production. You’re pulling all the people together for that. You also introduce them to labels and other business partners and develop those business relationships. You live through the entire deal with them. Every time artists are recording, you help them collect everything and interface with the label to come up with support plans.

You’re the sounding board for everything. Producers is a good word for it on that level. You do the initial negotiation with all the different partners and people working with the artist. You get it down to some basic points and then hand it off to the lawyer who does all the fine print. It’s very helpful because, as a manager, I already know what the fine print is. It’s a stepped-up negotiation.

That makes sense. Having seen so many deals, you know what to expect and what to ask for. It would be super helpful to have a manager who also understood the law side.

If you are an artist that has ambitions, you're in the business, whether you know it or not. Share on X

We position them. I help our team from the get-go or the introduction. I look at it from the legal perspective and say, “No, this will be more advantageous if you approach things this way or that way.”

When you say deals that you’re helping work on, is that just for record labels or distribution? Are there deals for all kinds of things an artist might have?

Everything. I do sync licensing deals, branding deals, personal appearances, everything. I just call them all deals because they’re contracts, but it sounds more colloquial. People understand it better than contracts. It sounds dry.

Deal sounds cooler. It’s like, “I’m getting something out of this.”

You’re getting things done. Every step, you’re trying to improve the artist’s position.

The manager relationship has a mentorship aspect. Managers often have a stake in the artist doing well, so they’re incentivized to make the best deals that will help the artist because it will help them, too. How do you, as a manager, help the artists think of what they do as a business and financially set themselves up in the best possible position?

I want to talk about the artist mindset because artists often say, “I’m just the artist. I don’t want to do business.” The thing is, if you’re an artist with ambitions, you’re in the business, whether you know it or not. You’re out there swimming with sharks, but you don’t know they’re in the water. Right. I want them to understand what they have. That’s not only the copyrights.

I’d be like a master that you have in the publishing. I’ll explain to them all the different streams of income that you can get from your rights. You can sell your master or just distribute it. You can get an administration deal for your publishing or do a co-publishing deal and sell it. The rest of it is a lot of understanding of the timing of where you’re at. What your business is today versus what your business is, and our goals are for you over the next ten years.

We can unpack that a little bit more, but on the financial side, I always think of things as cashflow. When we’re doing different types of deals, sometimes you have an advance. That means that you have to wait a while before you get your next check because you’re recouping. Somebody has paid you in advance against royalties. They’ve made you an advance for X number of sales that they anticipate that you’re going to make. Until you reach that X number of sales, you’ll probably not get the next check for that because they’ve already paid you upfront.

Our thing is to think very carefully about what you do with that money upfront, for one. The second thing is. There’s more than one deal to be had. The funding sources are from different sources. We offset. We try to make sure that you have cashflow from one if you’re taking an advance. We’re building another business on the other side where you’re getting cashflow.

What’s interesting about the state of the industry is that certain distribution deals will do a pass-through, which means that they will give you cashflow. You don’t have to wait for 100% of your advance to be recouped. You’ll still get something every month. An artist was concerned, especially early on, about, “I’ve got bills and monthly payments. I can’t put a total stop to that cashflow. I’m not used to planning in advance for my expenses.” We’ve been able to get deals where you can still have some funds coming through every month. That’s a fairly new way of operating in the industry. It’s really helpful for artists.

Especially if artists are not used to managing their finances, especially if they’re younger artists, they haven’t even worked the job yet. I’m sure that could be helpful for them.

We’ll sit with them and map it out. We’ll tell them as many times as they need to understand it, like, “This deal will get you through this amount of time. We’re going after these other things so that they can help you in the meantime. We’re going to, for example, set up a merch store. That’s real-time funds. We’re getting you on touring and shows. If we can think of your entire business as a whole, you shouldn’t be at a place where your money is stuck.” We want them to feel secure and know that they’re going to be able to pay their bills while they’re building their industry.

To be fair. It’s hard to be creative and work in flow when you’re trying to create new music and stuff like that if you’re stressed out about bills.

 

If they get to a certain level where it makes sense and the fees are reasonable, then we recommend an accountant or business manager who will help them. They can even recommend investments and all that kind of thing. We don’t pry as management. We’re like, “This service is available to you, but I’m not going to insert myself into your finances unless you’re open to that.” I don’t push them around like that. I always want the artist to feel like they trust that we’re looking at their best interests and we’re going to meet them where they are.

You hear stories, especially with major labels, about the artist not having control over the expenses. It’s like they gave them an advance, but then the record label, we’re spending this much money on marketing. We have to recoup that before we pay you any more. I found that so frustrating because it’s the artist’s money that they’re spending, and the artist has no control over that. How do you mitigate that?

Navigating Record Labels And Marketing Budgets

I feel like we have a lot more freedom in the current industry. We talk very closely with the label. We have a sense of what they’re spending. A lot of times, we are able to get a deal where only a certain amount of marketing costs are recoupable. It’s not everything. We have different sources within the label. This is where managers are important, and who you’re working with can be important. If they know that we’re watching and we know they’re meeting us as partners. They’re not signing to them and saying, “You do whatever. We’re reliant on you.” They know that we’re coming to the table with something. That’s how we have a little bit more oversight and insight into what’s being spent.

Thank goodness.

I also budget in advance. I negotiate all the producer deals and stuff. I have a chart. I’ll be like, “This is your recording budget. This is how much we can spend.” I try to keep it under control.

How do you decide what the budget should be, especially if it’s a new artist? How bootstrapped should they be in the beginning and not use famous producers, big studios, and all that stuff for their first album? How do you decide what’s worth investing in this artist on the front end?

When they’re younger and their budgets are small, you want to be careful who you’re working with. It’s a bit nuanced. A lot of artists come to us who have friends. They’re working with a producer, and the producer is their buddy. They have an arrangement there. We know the producer’s not going to overcharge. There’s something going on there, but we’re also like, “As you grow, you want to expand.” We’ll put them in writing sessions with people.

If they hit it off, there’s still this piece of the industry where it’s an artist-to-artist relationship. We have a frank conversation with that person’s team and say, “This is all we’ve got.” A lot of times, if they love it, they’ll still do it. I can’t guarantee that, but there’s a relationship piece of this whole thing. A lot of people in the industry are here because they love the music.

I agree. People are willing to do more for a thing they believe in. It’s less about what’s on paper.

When we get to the point where things are growing and you think you could step up, even if they give us a break, this producer is going to be expensive. We talk with them and the label. We get more funds. Usually, the label team will look at it and go, “I think we’ll get to this point if we work with this person and put out a song.” Sometimes, it’s worth it. It’s not always an egregious number.

Let’s say you’re ready to grow. You’re an artist. You’ve done your first album or two. You’ve got a manager. How do you decide whom to add to your team and when? I’m assuming the manager has a lot of input on this.

They have to figure out who their manager is going to be. To start there, the manager has to understand you, share your vision and where you can be, and understand where you are. Know that where you’re at can change and your mind can change, but they’re in the trenches with you. You want somebody who’s open-minded and willing to talk through everything. That’s the manager who’s going to care for your business.

I do think it’s helpful if the manager knows a lot of people, has been around, and has a lot of connections. You get a little bit of extra information if you have the right connections. You’re able to call somebody on the phone, and they pick up. That is helpful, too. The manager is like a bicycle wheel or the hub in the middle of them.

As we pick, it’s a similar process of picking what label and what publisher to work with. You’ve got to start with, “Does the team understand you? Do they know what to do with your music?” They hear it, and they’re like, “This is great. I’ve already got ideas. I can think this person’s going to love it. I should take it to this brand. I should pitch it to the music supervisor.” That’s very helpful if they’re willing to have a back-and-forth conversation.

The manager has to understand you, share your vision, and be willing to grow with you as your career evolves. Share on X

People who present you with a deal and say, “Take it or leave it,” I’m like, “We should be able to talk through this deal.” There’s that kind of relationship you have to have with your label. As somebody in the industry, there are certain people I already know, so I’m like, “Great.” I’ve vetted a bunch of teams and have been impressed with certain label teams, and tend to continue to do business with them.

There’s also a certain amount of continuous meeting of new people because we are always looking for innovative thinkers who are effective at executing responsive teams. Sometimes, you’ll find a startup, and they move fast on their feet. It all depends on the artist. We try to vet things in a way where we know we end up with the artist along for the ride. It’s not like we’re just talking to people without the artist. The artist gets to go to meetings, feel people out, and see if they connect with somebody.

It helps to have a starting point because the manager already has these relationships. Artists tend not to have any, so they wouldn’t even know where to start, or maybe they wouldn’t even go down this path because they don’t have enough information. That’s a helpful thing with the manager, having those connections. Even your experience of being in the industry for so long and seeing it from different angles is helpful for the artists because the artist usually only sees it from their angle.

I can tell you this is how they’re thinking, why they want to make this decision, and why they’re recommending something. I always tell them there’s a reason for almost everything. We’re happy to explain it to you. It’s not just, “I don’t think that’s a great idea. Just do it.” As a manager, that’s something I want to know. I want to make sure whoever I’m talking to has a reason for what they’re proposing. We can hash it out and decide whether or not it’s a good idea, but if they’re just throwing things out there, I’m like, “Maybe you didn’t think that through.”

What do you think about a very new artist? Who’s the first person they should have on their team? Should it be the manager? Maybe they should start with a VA to help them get things done faster, but does the artist know how to hand things off to the VA? I always encourage artists, “You need to try to offload some of the things on your plate that other people could do.” There are so many things that only you can do, like perform, record, and write.” What is the path they should take when they start as a single artist?

How Social Media Helps Independent Artists Grow

A manager is important. They’re helpful and very important. If there’s a sub-step and you can’t get a manager right away because that’s a big investment of time and energy, I would look at social media assistance, somebody who will help you hone your social media campaign. That’s such a huge piece of the industry. In the initial stages, only the artist can do it. It’s helpful to have somebody who can look at the artist, take a step back, and say, “You could do this or that. You should be posting X number of times. Change around your filters and content.” Somebody who can explain how the different platforms work.

Even give angles and messaging they should use to stand out on social media and stuff like that.

As managers, we do that kind of coaching. We have someone on our team who specializes in digital marketing. We also do social media. If you can’t get the big team right away, having someone like that or even a creative group of friends is helpful. It’s somebody you can bounce ideas off. It’s a start.

It’s a good idea. Sometimes, if we’re alone, we feel utterly overwhelmed. If someone helped with at least one piece or at least generated ideas so we didn’t feel like we had to do it all ourselves, that would be helpful. There’s this catch-22 with needing a manager. When you first start, you have no money coming in, so you have nothing to offer them. Why should they come onto your team? You can’t scale until you have help. How do you get around that catch-22 situation?

The other piece that maybe could help them to make them more attractive for management to step in is doing shows. Start by reaching out to other artists and saying, “Can I open for you?” Get a little bit of that in front of you because there are independent agents who are great, have a vision, and work in the underground. The underground is important for an artist to be in a community.

Let’s say, for the audience. When you say it’s a big investment for management to come on board, it’s because we work on commission. As a lawyer, I’ve negotiated a lot of management deals. I’ve structured our management deal to walk the line and try to be fair to both parties. Generally speaking, we don’t make money unless the artist is making money. We’ve agreed to stand in their shoes for the most part. We know it could be a year before we get paid.

To give you an insight into how a management business is run, we have higher marquee artists. We’re working on that to keep our business open by building these higher marquee artists. We have a layer of developing artists. These are artists who have a few hundred thousand streams. We get them some distribution deals, that kind of thing, and bring in some independent marketing for them at that level. We are still music lovers. I have an artist where I was like, “I love you. You have 50 streams. I want to work with you.” That might be crazy, but we still did that. That’s a piece of things.

Our audience will love to hear that because there are all these other numbers and vanity metrics, but there’s still a piece that’s just about the music. If someone loves your music, they might be willing to take a chance on you.

That’s still alive in the industry. You look at how many people still want to get into the industry. I started as a musician, so that’s why I’m here. Most people in the industry started as musicians or have some kind of love for the art. Huge fans. In the beginning stages, before you can start talking to people or before you’re able to meet somebody, maybe have a friend help you with coordinating things to take some things off your plate.

 

The other thing is that people look on the internet for artists, but they’re still worried about getting their streams. That’s why I say to put yourself out there. Be there and understand that different platforms work in different ways. That’s an important distinction. I still think TikTok is the discovery platform. You’re still on TikTok. Things pop up that you’ve never seen before. On Instagram, it’s like a gated community. It’s not that easy to find new stuff.

TikTok has been the main platform where you translate to Spotify. People go off the platform to Spotify and discover an artist. They have a new feature on Instagram that has a little bit of the ability to look at Spotify directly from the app. We’ll see what happens with that. That’s a cool tool. They should try to understand how each app works. That helps you figure out how to maximize the app. Don’t give up because your first post is going to have four views. Don’t worry about it. That’s because nobody sees it until you pick things up.

I’m curious about this because I’m a huge fan of live music. Every artist, if possible, should be performing live. You mentioned that’s how you can get to know other artists, collaborate, and be seen. Do you manage completely digital artists? What are the challenges around that?

I manage a lot of rappers. They came from the SoundCloud scene or the TikTok scene. We had some of the early big TikTok things. We found them, and then COVID hit. They had maybe one show, and that was it. For a while, it was just living on the internet. It was interesting. They did a lot of innovative content. They got their friends in their backyard with an iPhone or a camera, did a bunch of stuff, and kept going. They did a lot of work on TikTok, but also Instagram and YouTube. You have to focus on everything.

They didn’t do that for years but built their following. They have an international following, which is interesting. By the time they toured, we were like, “We’re going to book you in Europe too. You’re going to go to Japan, Australia, or New Zealand.” It was very beneficial for them to build it. There are no borders on the internet. It’s just their community.

Do you think they could continue building their community online only, or are they missing out on a huge piece of the income pie if they don’t perform live? I know some artists don’t want to perform live. They just want to make music in their bedroom.

You are missing out on potentially a huge piece of income. That is true. I have an artist who doesn’t want to perform live. They have to understand and accept that they’re missing out on a huge piece of income. I’m not going to force you in front of people if you’re severely uncomfortable because that’s not going to sell tickets, either. You’ve got to take care of your mental health and your art.

Have you had anyone who’ll perform, but only on live streaming or private online concerts? They don’t want to travel.

I have somebody like that. It’s very limiting. We have to seek. Their business has transformed into being more like an influencer.

How do you encourage your artists to build their online communities or fan communities around themselves?

Strategies For Engaging With Fans Online

Interaction is a key component. I understand it’s not for everybody. They’re not always comfortable with this, but if you talk to your fans, talk to other artists, pop into their feed, compliment them, or say something about people you want to work with, you can pop in and comment on their posts on Instagram. Respond to people a little bit more than just a heart. Having a conversation and building a real sense of community means a lot.

We have so much unprecedented access. Some people feel stressed out and oppressed by it because they feel like they need to do it, but they forget what an incredible opportunity it is.

There are people who are uncomfortable. I have artists who go in and out of being comfortable and uncomfortable. I try to help them find a framework that works for them. You don’t necessarily want to show the world everything about yourself. Some artists are comfortable talking about anxiety. Some are too anxious to talk about it. Find that one comfort moment for you.

If I have somebody who is great at crafting, they play every instrument and do a live performance of a song or a clip of a song where they build the whole song and loop things. It’s super cool. You don’t have to talk to anybody. You’re not talking to the camera. You’re like, “I’m building this thing and sharing my art with you.” You can comment thank you to all the comments in your video, but that could be a piece of content you create that you’re comfortable with.

Share a hobby or something. Make sure you’re not always just selling yourself. People understand authenticity through the internet. The users know. You can share a hobby or something you’re excited about, like a game you got or a sport you’re into. You can post little things that are glimpses of your life, but you don’t have to show them everything.

To come full circle, this is where a manager is helpful because they can help you get out of your head, think outside of the box, and figure out what you can share that’s not going to feel too uncomfortable for you and give you ideas. Many times, we get stuck in our heads. We’re not able to decipher all the things that are causing us angst and see them from a different way. You can do that. You could post this. “I didn’t even think about that.” That’s where having a partner in your business, which a manager is, can be helpful.

As management, we don't make money unless the artist is making money. We've agreed to basically stand in their shoes for the most part. Share on X

We try to be a sounding board. We can see things in the artists that they don’t see in themselves. All of us humans are like that. We’re somebody who can say, “You’re great at this thing. I love this unique aspect about you. People would like to hear about it. Maybe lean into that.”

We take so many things for granted about ourselves. We’re like, “That’s boring. No one would care about that.”

I’m like, “You like golf. There are tons of bands who like golf. That’s cool.”

Is there anything else you want to tell any artists, aspiring artists, or artists who are ready or looking for a manager while you’re here?

I’d love to leave people with this. You want to own the business so that you understand what you’re in. You build your team and put it in a drawer. You don’t have to focus on it all the time. You can still be an artist. It’s not mutually exclusive. Keep an open mind. I’ve encountered artists who are like, “I would never work with this company because that’s selling out.” These are all impressions that you got out of nowhere. Take the meeting. Talk to people. If people show an interest in you, take the meeting and hear what they have to say. It’s better to know all your options and consider a wide range of information because there’s also a lot of misinformation out there. That’s important.

You can get these preconceived ideas about things or beliefs because of something that you saw happen in the past. Maybe you didn’t have all the information or had the wrong information. You can cut off possibilities because of subconscious beliefs. Having that other person in your corner can help you see past those things.

Finally, if you’re interested in somebody, you can also ask for an informational interview and be like, “Can we have coffee? I’m an independent artist. I would like to talk.” There are plenty of people in the industry who would be open to that.

That’s a little intimidating for artists because they think it’s their time, like, “Who am I to ask for their time?” It’s good to hear that from somebody who’s a manager. How can people get in touch with you?

You can email me at Janis@WaxMgmt.com.

Are you guys on social media at all?

We’re on Instagram under @WaxMgmt.

This has been helpful. I appreciate you being able to offer all these different experiences and angles on the music industry for artists because we often don’t get to see things through all these lenses. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me on, Bree. I enjoyed our conversation.

 

Important Links

• Wax Management
• Janis Shen’s Email
• Wax Management on Instagram

 

About Janis Shen

Janis Shen is CEO of Waxmgmt and a practicing entertainment lawyer with over 25 years of experience in the music industry. Shen holds a JD from New York University’s School of Law, with a focus in Intellectual Property and Entertainment Law. Shen spent the early part of her career working on the record label circuit, managing business and legal affairs for RCA Records, BMG, and TVT Records. After a short stint working in music supervision at StirTV, Shen ventured into private practice, working with clients spanning the music and entertainment industries. In 2015, Shen founded Amaryllis Artists, managing artists such as Balkan Beat Box and A-WA. She joined Waxmgmt as CEO in 2019, where she works with artists like Freddie Dredd (RCA), Savage Gasp (BMG currently, 300 previously), Llusion (formerly Republic), 1nonly (Warner) and more. Shen specializes in music rights and catalog management, and is passionate about business education and mentorship for young artists.