A career in music can be exciting, especially if you have a passion for it. But earning money can be a struggle. You may have heard of the struggles of the “starving artist” – musicians are no exception. But what if you can turn that around? In today’s episode, musician-entrepreneur Evan Price shows you how you can earn a good income from your music. Armed with his knowledge of music as a business, Evan gives practical insights for musicians on turning their passion for music into a profitable profession. Whether you’re a live performer, recording artist, or one-man band, Evan will help you become a financial success in your music career.
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Turning Your Music Career Into A Business With Evan Price
I’m excited to be here with Evan Price of Artist Collective. We’re going to be talking about how to make money as a musician and creative, which is pretty much the goal of this show. I’m excited to be talking to Evan and digging into all of his great ideas and how he helps his clients. First, Evan, I would love to have you share, your background, your story leading up to where you are as far as your journey in music and then how you started working with clients as you do.
First of all, I appreciate you having me. I got started like a lot of people do, especially in the coaching world. I was a musician myself. I found myself wanting to create music with my friends. When I was about fourteen, I got into a couple of bands. I ended up booking myself and our bands. I realized I liked the business side. I remember being in this minivan with six of my friends like, “Is this what I want to do forever?”
I liked putting on the promoter hat and talking with the other promoters like, “Here’s your guarantee. Here’s this.” I was like, “I like this side of things for some reason.” I was attracted to more of the entrepreneurship that comes from being an independent musician over touring and having to deal with all of that stuff. I ended up going to music business school, got a degree and opened my company to help other artists or artistpreneurs as I call them. Find out how to make money doing what they love, whatever that means.
You specifically went to school for the music business?
Your school wasn’t focused on improving your musical skills. It was all about the entrepreneurship side.
I’ll be honest with you, back in 2010 or 2011, it was hard to find a school like that.
I was going to say, “Where is this magical school?” Most of the time, it’s like everyone’s focused on your musical skills, which is great but then you don’t learn the business stuff.
I’m here in Illinois. I’d go to a bunch of the state schools, look around and I’m like, “This is what I want to do.” They’re like, “You can go into music class and then also go into business class.” I’m like, “That’s not the same thing. I’m going to keep them on.”
It isn’t because that’s exactly what I did. I have a dual degree in Music and Business but they were very much separate things.
I went to Columbia here in Chicago so it’s like a Liberal Arts school and they did specifically have a music business program, which was cool. I jumped on it and got accepted. I went here for a couple of years and found out that I enjoyed this side of things.
That is so good to hear because I also went to a Liberal Arts school but they did not have such a program. I still don’t think they do. I went to school in the ‘90s but I still don’t think they have that kind of a program. They have more of a conservatory model. You’re very lucky to have gotten that because for me it was hard to apply what I learned in business and entrepreneurship to music because music is such a different business. I thought in the back of my mind, “These are two different things.” I’m doing the Business degree as a fallback plan and I did. I worked as an accountant and a manager and stuff like that. It’s helped me a lot in my business and marketing but I did not understand how to join those two together. Do you think that’s a problem for a lot of people?
I think so. It’s the two sides of your brain. It’s that creative side and then the business side. It is hard to meld those, especially because a lot of creatives like to do it for the love of it. A lot of times they feel like asking for money or focusing on money taints that experience. If you truly want to do it as a career, you’ve got to have the business side of it. If you want to do it as a hobby, that’s great but you need to find ways to make money from it. You have to put on that entrepreneur hat.
I even say, “If you’re going to do it for a hobby and you want to do it for the long-term, you also need to understand the business side because if you don’t make any money, that is an expensive hobby.” It’s going to be draining your money if you want to keep recording and stuff like that and buying instruments. You know what it is, all the gear and the cost of recording. Even if you’re able to record from home, you have to buy the gear and everything like that. A lot of times you’ve got to hire people to help you with arrangements unless you know how to play every instrument. I feel like no matter what, you need to learn the business side.
You don’t have to go to music business school like I did to learn that. I was in it and I enjoyed my experience. I met a lot of cool people. The connections I made were more than the knowledge I gained if I can be honest. They gave me some books that I could have bought on Amazon and read.
That’s good to note because you don’t have to spend all that money to get the knowledge that you need. You get some books and work with people like you and me. That’s all you need. You don’t need to go get a fancy degree.
What I experienced in college goes to say towards any degree or focus but our industry moved so quickly that it was changing as I was there. The four major labels turned into three major labels. Spotify started to exist. Our professors were talking about almost outdated ideas while I was in the class. That was a little frustrating and that’s what steered me towards what I do, which is more online teaching and coaching because we can move as quickly as the industry does. AI’s a thing. How do we use that in our mix instead of it going through the whole college and then getting it approved and then by the time they approve it, things have changed again? That’s what I experienced, at least.
I interviewed Ari Herstand about the new version of his book, How to Make It in the New Music Business. Much has changed in three years since he did his last version of the book. I’m so happy that that book is getting into colleges and universities because at least it’s a way to keep them somewhat updated but it probably still is behind. As soon as he doesn’t write a book, another version of it for three years, probably a lot has changed. Let’s talk about how can you prioritize income as a musician if you’re creating a business plan or at least you have a trajectory of what you’re trying to do to build a music career.
What I like to focus our clients on is figuring out what is it that you do that you could sell at a high ticket. If you start there, you only have to sell a couple of those to at least make your bottom line, whatever that means for you. If it’s a studio or a custom song, selling and flipping gear or coaching others how to do something that you’ve already done, start there and then build out instead of going towards the shotgun approach as I call it. That is trying to find a bunch of fans that pay you $3 a month, for instance. It’s easier to get by if you can craft a high ticket offer around what you’re already doing, which you already love to do. I would always say to prioritize that first. You can go through that value ladder as they call it. What else can I do that I need a lot of people to pay for, whether it’s a Patreon or a small piece of merch or streams? That’ll come but how can you pay your bills first and foremost? Package something around a high-ticket offer so it’s always a focus.Figure out what you can sell at a high ticket. It’s easier to make money if you can craft a high-ticket offer around what you’re already doing. Click To Tweet
That’s good because a lot of musicians start with those things you mentioned, streams and Patreon and things that feel less intimidating. They’re more natural and don’t have to think hard and package things up and know how to do the marketing. That will probably cause them to struggle for a very long time because those things are not very high paying.
When you look at getting a massive amount, 4,000 streams pay you $1,000 or 1 million streams is $4,000. That’s what it is. To get that million, you have to pay for so many ads. Getting it out there to not even meet your bottom line, you’re going to burn out with something like that. At first, you can bootstrap it. In other ways, you won’t be as broke.
Is there a way to do a high ticket offer for performing? Let’s say that a musician maybe doesn’t feel super confident in their ability to teach something or coach people on something but they are amazing performers. Is there something they can do in that realm that’s a little more high-ticket?
Corporate gigs, weddings and private parties. You’d be surprised, especially in the corporate realm. Corporations have a budget they need to spend and they need cool entertainment for holiday parties, random parties that they throw or team-building exercises. They are actively looking for cool performers and will pay you $5,000 for the same show you would’ve played for free or for exposure. Getting into those circles is more beneficial than even those ticketed events. They both play a good part but weddings do too. Weddings are crazy. You don’t even need a full band to get into that. Those are good, fruitful activities if you are a performer and you don’t want to just coach.
How do you recommend that they “package” that up in a way that’s appealing to those people, corporations or weddings versus saying, “I’m a musician. Do you want me to play?”
This is true for any high ticket offer. It’s all about the transformation that you’re selling. What is the emotion that you’re selling? You’re not selling yourself performing at the show. You’re selling the emotions you’re going to create while you’re playing that. If you can package that and communicate that in a good way to whoever is booking like, “I’m going to bring your boring party to life and make sure everybody’s having a good time,” if you can showcase that on your website with lots of content that showcases those things happening, you’re able to put it at a high ticket instead of being like, “I’m a singer and I sing. You could pay me to sing.” That’s not that appealing. If you can paint that transformation, whatever that might be, you can sell it for $1,000-plus for the same gig.
I combined stories and songs so I build myself more as a speaker which includes music and a particular program that had a particular theme and focus and would make them feel a certain way inspirationally. That was where I started to suddenly I could start charging a lot more.
Even in your realm too like house shows. COVID changed things for that but before that, I knew tons of artists that aren’t huge at all but making over six figures playing private house shows for their super fans and not even charging anything. They’re saying, “Tip me whatever you want.” They’re making multiple thousand dollars a show because they’re able to create that experience and bring them into their world of storytelling. That’s another piece too. House shows are a cool thing that is coming back.
They’re coming back. I’m planning on having one in my backyard, assuming it doesn’t rain. I figure I can do it in my garage if it rains. There are ways to do it besides what we used to do. Before COVID, maybe people are a little more reticent because of COVID to have it inside but you can still have it outside. I agree with doing the donation model because a lot of times, people will give more that way than if it’s ticketed. Also, you got this captive audience for your merch. People are there, had a great experience and are going to want to take that home with them.
I’ve even seen that model of pay what you want, work well for merch. That can be tricky. A lot of artists are like, “I don’t know.” I’ve seen people make more like, “I have a CD here. Leave what you want.” More often than not, they’re leaving $20 instead of the $5 you were going to ask.
That works for CDs because as we know, it’s hard to sell those anyway. I’m not sure I would do it for things where we had to outlay a certain amount like t-shirts and stuff like that. Sometimes people want to support you but there’s not an easy way for them to, especially if it’s an event where there isn’t an option to donate in any way other than through merch. That is a great way to do it because I’ve had people walk up to me and are like, “I want to support you,” and hand me $100. That doesn’t happen very often but if you give them a way to donate, they can do that.
Ari even says this too. If you’re in those rooms, even if it is a low-ticketed event or a private party, it is your job as the performer to connect with everybody. Go up and talk to them, grab their email, try to get them on your list or give them a sticker. Have those conversations. You’re going to build relationships that way, which could turn into other private parties.It is your job as a performer to connect with everyone. Talk to people, get their email address, and build relationships. Click To Tweet
I see performers, if we’re talking about performers in particular, treat it like a show. “I’m going to play and then leave.” You are missing out on opportunities by not going up to every single person in that room who even looked at you for a quick second. Say hello, tell them who you are and give them your card. That personal aspect is forgotten a lot by performers. That’s needed.
A lot of people are super uncomfortable with that though. It’s a skill. You got to start doing it and feel super uncomfortable about it first and then you’ll feel more comfortable. Most artists I know are very uncomfortable about walking up to people and introducing themselves.
That’s a skill like all the business things we’re talking about that you have to focus on. You just can’t pick up a guitar and hope it works out anymore. You’ve got to hone these skills that we’re talking about.
Let’s talk about as far as high-ticket offers. For example, somebody who has got a studio of some kind where they’re teaching already like they’re teaching piano or voice. They’re trading time for money. How can they expand that into something where they’re making a lot more with it?
It’s a similar answer to the high ticket events, which is you are selling the transformation. You’re not selling your time like, “It’s $40 a lesson.” What I hear a lot from vocal coaches, songwriting coaches or guitar coaches, drum coaches or whatever is they seem to be attracting people who aren’t as serious about that transformation. They’re like, “I’ll take a couple of lessons and soak it up.” Are you going to learn drums in two lessons? Probably not.
If you can package it into, “I’m going to specifically help you go from being unconfident, even singing in front of your family to being so confident you sing in front of a stage of 1,000 people,” that’s a transformation that you can sell more powerfully at $1,000 plus for an 8-week program. Instead of that hourly lesson model, you’re going to attract more serious people because they paid $1,000 upfront. You better believe they’re going to be dialed in and you’re selling more like, “Here’s a promise. I’m going to promise you by the end of this, you’re going to get this big thing that you want.” Dialing in on the exact things you help people with, instead of offering lessons, you are helping them make a change in their life.
I’m curious because I’ve helped people do this as well. One thing that stresses them out is, “Can I promise this transformation? I can only do so much. I can’t make them do it.” What do you say to that?
That goes for any coaching. I always use this analogy of a personal trainer. That’s what I consider myself. I’m a personal trainer for your music business and artist business. If you don’t pick up the weights, get on the treadmill, go to the gym or eat the diet that I’m telling you to eat, you’re not going to get the results. It comes down to do you have a track record of that happening if someone did do it. That’s first. If they are feeling like, “I don’t feel confident enough that I can get that transformation,” you probably need to do it more and make that happen. For instance, it’s typically best to do that if you’ve yourself gone through that transformation.
If you said, “I did the things I’m teaching and I got this transformation. I know it’ll work for you and other people,” then you get one more person to do it. There’s another piece of social proof. Three more people have done it. Great. You can feel confident like, “If you go through these steps, you will get the thing that I’m promising.” That’s when you can add on guarantees. “If you do this and everything I say and we can document it and you don’t get the results, I’ll give you your money back.” That’s a huge promise.
Building those reps and getting that social proof under your belt is important. You can’t make claims like that and not have them come true. Do not preach and fake it until you make it. You need to get those actual numbers and results first. In the end, you’re right. You can’t make them do things. Making that clear upfront is important. “If you don’t show up to class or do the things that I’m saying, you’re never going to get this transformation and nobody’s going to be able to help you.” Making that clear is important.Don’t make bold claims that are not true. Get social proof under your belt first. Don’t preach and fake it till you make it. Click To Tweet
I do think that people are uncomfortable making that promise like, “If you don’t get these results, I’ll give you your money back. I’ll keep working with you until you do.” How do you make artists feel a little more comfortable with offering that guarantee? Especially when they don’t have a ton of results yet or they don’t feel so confident that they can get this result for anyone.
The lowest barrier is a great point of, “I’ll keep working with you.” You’re not out of money at that point. You’re out a little bit more time to make sure that they are setting those stipulations. “I’ll work with you for another two months.” That’s a low-barrier promise that a lot of our clients have no problem doing. If they do feel uncomfortable with that, I would say, “Go out and get more results then.” Before you offer that money-back guarantee, make sure that your system works because we want it to work. If it doesn’t work, you’re not going to sell any of it and nobody gets helped. Putting in those reps, working with more people and dialing in the process will bring up that confidence to be able to offer a guarantee like that.
What if you are a songwriter? Maybe someone’s reading this thinking, “I don’t teach voice or production.” They could probably do the performing thing but maybe they don’t want to because they don’t want to tour but they do write music. How can they feel confident to be able to teach other people songwriting if they haven’t done that before?
I’ll preface that by saying not everybody is built to be a coach and that’s okay. That’s worth mentioning. Sometimes you have a process but unless you have a passion for helping others do that, maybe coaching isn’t the focus for you. To build that confidence is putting in those reps and being able to do it for yourself.
If you can look back and say, “I’ve written 1,000 songs. Maybe they didn’t go anywhere but I’ve been able to do this thing that other people are desperate for, which is being able to finally finish songs.” That’s what I hear a lot from our songwriting coaches. This is the phrasing their clients always use. “I have a bunch of song ideas in my voice memos but I don’t know how to finish them. I don’t have the confidence to push through.”
Maybe you’re good at being able to take away that overthinking part of your brain and finish those songs and you can probably push other people through that. That’s the transformation that they honed in. By the end of these eight weeks, I’m going to help you take your voice memo ideas and turn them into finished song demos. It’s about honing in on what you’ve been able to perfect for yourself a lot of times. You can probably help others if you have a passion for doing that.
That’s a good angle because I’m guessing a lot of people out there are like, “I’ve written a lot of songs but I haven’t written any hit songs so how could I say that I’m going to be a songwriting coach?”
That’s the Imposter Syndrome creeping in. Maybe the hit song you wrote didn’t get heard by the right people. Maybe it didn’t get into the hands of other people. If you were to help somebody else write a song, maybe that would turn into a hit song. It’s about writing more songs. That’s a skill a lot of aspiring songwriters want.None of your songs are becoming big hits? Try helping someone else write a song. Maybe that could turn into a hit. Click To Tweet
Maybe they never even finished a full song. There’s like, “I have a bunch of lyrics written down. I know that I want to do this but I’m not sure how to get started.” They don’t necessarily need to look for Grammy winners to help them. They probably can’t afford that but they need an accountability person. That’s it when it comes down to it.
That helps a lot of people out there feel like, “At least I do have the skill of finishing or time management,” or whatever it is that someone else out there doesn’t have. They’re supremely talented in their writing but they can’t get it done. That’s a good angle on how they can do that and build a program out of it. What do you say as far as coaching one-on-one, group or course membership? How do you guide people in which one of those things is right for them to offer?
I have an interesting relationship with course builders and that’s what I hear a lot from our potential clients and clients. “I have an idea. I want to build a course. I want to put it online and have passive income coming in.” Wouldn’t we all?
I’m laughing here. It doesn’t work like that.
I was doing that years ago as well. I thought that was the move. Here’s the thing. Unless you have a gigantic following or a huge track record of having that course that you build to be able to get results, it’s hard to push people into action, especially if it’s a low-ticket thing. How many of us have books that we bought that are sitting on the shelf that we maybe read on the back cover?
If I would’ve spent $1,200 on that book, I probably would’ve read it. That’s why a one-on-one high ticket is more impactful first. Do that, work with people one-on-one, maybe slip into group coaching, then maybe see what the track record is, what the social proof is and be like, “This is working. Let’s put that into a course.” I can say, “I’ve had 100 people go through this with me one-on-one and gotten the results I’m promising. All you need to do is go through and take the steps without even talking to me and you can get those results.”
That’s why I always say to start with a high ticket one-on-one first, go to a group, then decide if the course passive income thing is the next best step for you. Starting there, I’ve never seen that work well. Not that it hasn’t somewhere out there but without that big following or that track record, it’s hard to get people off the couch and doing the things in the course, even if it’s solid information.
I generally agree with that. You can do a hybrid model where you have a course and then maybe one group call a month or something like that. That can be appealing because they know at least they’re going to get that real-time support if they’re going through the course and not either making progress or understanding something or they need that accountability to keep going. That can be useful but probably not until you get to the point of the group.
You got to do the one-on-one first to know that you can get success for people. Also, it helps you hone your methodology so you can then package it into a course. I’ve worked with this many people and on average, these are the things that worked best and then you can package it up into a course. In that way, maybe even you can use that with your one-on-ones and not have to spend so much time explaining the same thing over and over to them.
That hybrid approach you’re talking about is a good compromise because people need that accountability. Use that analogy of going to the gym and paying $20 to go in there. You may not show up. Even if you had a model where every once every week there was a personal trainer there waiting for you or somebody’s expecting you, they’re going to show you what to do. You’re going to be a lot more tapped in and get a lot better results than the person who had the basic gym membership. It’s the same thing here. Seeing some accountability to help push you over those roadblocks is crucial. I’m not totally against courses but I’m against courses before you’ve even done any of these other models.
Do you find that anybody says to you, “I feel like I need to get some certification before I start coaching people?” I’ve experienced that with people like, “I don’t feel like I can put myself out there as a coach until I get some coaching certification.”
It all comes down to results. Outside of interviews like this, nobody’s ever asked me if I have a degree. I got a piece of paper collecting dust in here. They see that I have other results that they want. That’s all. They’ve never been like, “How are you certified?” I’ve never had that question. It all comes down to results. That’s more important than the certification. If you feel like you’re not a good coach and you can’t activate people or hold them accountable, then maybe you should go and take some leadership course or something that gets you a certification. I know Brendon Burchard has this high performers coaching program that people go through but I don’t think it’s necessary if you can get the results you’re promising. That’s key.It all comes down to results. That's more important than the certification. Click To Tweet
I have experienced a lot of people saying, “I feel like I need to have this on my website for people to take me seriously as a coach.” I agree. If you’ve got the testimonials, you don’t need that. What about the tech side? I work with a lot of older artists that are very uncomfortable with the tech and they’re like, “I’d love to sell something online but I have no idea how to set this up so people can buy from me.” That paralyzes them in moving forward.
I’ve got clients that are not older that experience that same thing. That makes anybody out there feel better. It’s like what we said for a lot of these other things. It’s a skill that can be learned. If you are serious about this, you got to put it in those reps and learn it. That’s why I think the coaching helps. Having somebody there to walk you through it, even to send a quick screen share video like, “Here’s how you set up the Facebook ads real fast,” helps you work through those roadblocks.
What I’ve seen more often than not is most of the stuff artists and musicians and people wanting to get into this realm deal with is half of the stuff you think is important when it comes to tech isn’t. It’s a skill in itself knowing what to forget about and hyper-focus on. Do you need a full-blown-out website with all the bells and whistles coded and everything? No, honestly. You do need some digital presence or real estate online to point back to.
Does it need to be this fancy thing where you learn how to code or spend $5,000 having someone else do it? I don’t think so. Knowing when to put things down and knowing when to focus on things is a skill in itself. In the end, if you’re struggling with the tech, find somebody who isn’t struggling with the tech who can walk you through that. Maybe that’s a coach, a friend or a mentor but having someone to lean on will help through that.
What do you recommend as the easiest? If you’re doing one-on-one, all you need is an online presence and a way for people to pay you. What do you recommend for people like that to get started?
Zoom and PayPal. That’s it, even landing pages. When we first started, I had one landing page and it had a couple of testimonials and a way to book a call with us. That’s it. Simplicity is better when getting started. The beauty of online coaching is you don’t need all these things like backend systems right at the beginning. You just need a strong methodology to help get results, a way for them to pay you and a way for them to meet with you every week. That’s it.
You don’t need a big funnel, order bumps, upsells and all that stuff yet.
Build that as you go. To get started, you don’t need all that. That’s a big struggle for specific creatives. We’re all in our heads like, “I want it to look pretty and manageable.” When in the end, they end up making this fancy course that they’re hoping gets money in their pockets while they sleep and yet they find out that their methodology isn’t that strong. They did put all of this work and energy into making it look good when it isn’t working in itself. Focusing on that first and keeping it simple is all you need.
To get a client, do you recommend that you need to meet with them for an initial consult or do you find that people are willing to sign up for this stuff by reading the marketing materials?
I am a strong believer in discovery strategy calls, especially if it’s a high ticket. If you have a $20 course, you’re down the path like we talked about and you’re ready to do the course, you could sell a course, run an ad and have people go straight to that, go to an order bump and things like that. If you’re selling a 12-week program for $1,200, it’s very unlikely somebody who doesn’t know who you are, you don’t have a huge track record yet is going to check out without even speaking to you first or somebody on your team.
Set up that strategy call. How I paint it is, “I don’t accept everyone. This is a one-on-one thing. I want to make sure it’s a good fit before I take your money. I want to make sure it’s right for you.” People are usually like, “That’s a good mindset.” It’s an initial 45-minute discovery call where you dig into their pain points, figure out where they’re at, where they want to go and figure out if it’s a good fit to sell there.
As somebody that does this, I have met some people that I don’t want to work with so I’m glad that I had a call with them and I’m like, “No, not a good fit.” I do not want to take their money and then be frustrated the whole time or dread getting on a call with them. It’s important to have rules within yourself like, “Yes, I want to make money but I’m not going to make it at all costs.”
Especially if you’re starting to have that money-back guarantee, a lot of vocal coaches are like, “People are ready.” Maybe they’re big on TikTok, for instance. They would pay you without speaking to you but they can’t match the pitch. How are you going to help them through this problem that they want if they can’t even do the basic thing of singing? It’s like having that first call to be like, “Sing this song. Let’s see if you’re on par with where I want you to be as a student.” It helps.
They got to at least have a basic level for you to be able to be successful with them and ultimately that’s what we want as coaches. We do want to help people. We want to make money doing it but we want people to succeed and they need to have at least the basic tools in their tool belt to do that. We then help them learn how to use those tools.
This has been a cool conversation and we do a lot of the same things. It’s been interesting to explore these ideas. I like to ask questions as if I don’t have my opinion so I can let you have your opinion. Most of the time we pretty much agree. We’ve come up in the same schools of marketing, business and stuff like that as far as learning things online. Let them know how can they get in touch with you, find you on social media and all the things.
I am most active on Instagram. You can find me at @AC_Evan. The AC stands for Artist Collective. If you’re interested, you can go there. I’ve got a link in the bio where you can book a strategy call and chat with me and my team. Let’s see if it’s a good fit. I encourage you to check out the content to see if it’s something that makes sense. We are in one-on-one coaching. You want to work with somebody that you enjoy their energy for lack of a better term. Go check out my content, see if it’s something that you want to explore a little bit more and reach out if it’s something that makes sense. Look for creatives that are ready to be that artistpreneur and build their business.
That’s what’s great about shows that you can get a taste of like, “Do I like this person’s energy? Do I feel like we would vibe on a one-on-one basis?” Anyone that’s reading, you get a sense of what it would be like to work with Evan or me. It’s like a window into the personality of the person. That’s cool because you can learn from the content. You can watch people on videos but it’s even a little different when you have a long-form conversation with a person. There’s no script here. He had no idea what I was going to ask him. That’s why I love doing shows. It’s super fun for me to ask stuff and see what happens.
I feel like those are the best podcasts and the best podcast hosts that are not out of not in it for selfish reasons. You want to talk to people and get to know people. That’s great. It comes off well.
Thank you so much for sharing, Evan. We appreciate it. I encourage all of our readers to check you out.
Thanks for having me.